Two women talking: one Palestinian, one Israeli
JVL Introduction
“How do we keep talking when we feel hurt, afraid, victimised, murderous?” This is one of the questions in this powerful and moving dialogue between two women, one Palestinian and one Israeli; both are couples counsellors and both live in the US. They bring the skills they need for their work to this discussion, which is sometimes painful and often difficult but very important. Christine, the Palestinian woman, talks about her own family’s experience at the hands of Israelis but is able to hear Orla’s attachment to Israel and many of its people even while she deplores the actions of Israeli governments and the occupation as a whole.
The discussion took place in January although their reflections from September are included; perhaps by then October 7th was bot quite so raw but the onslaught on Gaza continues. It is a long piece but we feel worth the time needed. There is a section when the women talk about the future and the possibility of being neighbours, in that future Orla wants two States and Christine just one. I found their reasons for their different views both interesting and thought provoking.
LL
This article was originally published by Guardian (Opinion) on Fri 13 Sep 2024. Read the original here.
Many people would throw a tantrum at this point’: An Israeli and a Palestinian discuss 7 October, Gaza – and the future
Couples Therapy’s Orna Guralnik and former participant Christine have very different views on Israel and Palestine. Could they try to understand one another without the conversation breaking down?
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“Because as bad as Israelis are, they’re bombing the hospital, not because they feel like killing people in hospitals, but because they think Hamas is there …”.
That for me was one of the key points in this conversation. It wasn’t explored, probably because the issue’s far too painful for both women.
The conclusions many of us have reached are that Israel IS bombing the hospitals and other essential public services in order to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza (ethnic cleansing) and to kill them en masse if they don’t go (genocide).
The evidence for this interpretation is put forward in South Africa’s 75 page written report to the ICJ Dec 2023 (see the international mission led by Archbishop Tutu and public statements made by Israeli ministers and the IDF) and in other more recent analyses.
I can’t help feeling the tension between Gaza and Israel would not be so rigidly enforced if women were in power in both countries.
You forget Golda Meir
Like many Jews and others, it seems that Orna doesn’t actually know what Zionism is. As a young girl, she was sold a lie. She was told about a Zionism which was to do with hard work and liberation, not the Zionism of it’s leaders which was the ejection of Palestinians and the occupation of Palestine, which the Zionists convinced others to believe was rightfully theirs and theirs only. Orna obviously still believes those lies because she said she wants Palestine to be a Jewish State, when in fact she has no historic right to be there in the first place and appears not to recognise herself as an occupier. Orna demonstrates perfectly how Zionism has corrupted Judaism.
Reading this conversation I felt a growing sense of frustration at Orna’s fundamental inability to gasp the essential nature of the problem. She is prepared to empathize with Palestinian suffering but cannot acknowledge the root cause of it in the usurpation of Palestinian land in 1948, and is thus incapable of seeing what Israel must do to remedy the situation. Namely allow Palestinians to return en masse so that Israelis and Palestinians can form a single state with equal rights for all. Her demand that she be allowed to live in an ethnostate flies in the face of justice and is profoundly immoral. To put it simply, the land does not belong to Zionists. It never has done. Sharing it with Palestinians would call for a huge act of compromise on the part of the Palestinians, but all the evidence suggests that they would be prepared to take that path. But Orna won’t countenance it. Her sense of entitlement is staggering; it is also typical of the position of even the most liberal of Israelis.
Orna also fails to grasp the imbalance of the power dynamic. Consequently the conversation must be held on her terms and her demands have to be paramount.
After reading this I am more than ever convinced that a devastating regional war is inevitable – one which collapses the power of the apartheid state and forces Israelis to negotiate with Palestinians on equal terms.
Frances Kay: Unfortunately some of the most rabid Zionists are women.
Kuhnberg says Israeli Orna assumes her wants and needs must have priority over Palestinian Christine’s. It’s what much of Orna’s life experience will have taught her.
She and other Israelis sharing these assumptions may be in for a rude awakening BECAUSE of Israel’s conduct in Gaza and the West Bank since 7 Oct 2023.
The IDF have long worried about their soldiers being arrested outside Israel for alleged war crimes committed in Gaza. Morocco has now arrested one such soldier while he was on holiday and is deciding whether to put him on trial.
This is from the New Arab site:-“Can Morocco legally try an Israeli soldier?
The lawsuit argues that the Israeli soldier Avichzer participated in the Gaza War for three months, “committing atrocities including genocide and ethnic cleansing, which he boasted about in videos showing the killing, burning, and torture of Palestinians.”
“These actions are considered terrorist under both international and Moroccan law,” added the lawsuit. The complaint requests Avichzer’s arrest and trial, citing three key legal provisions: Article 1-711 of the Moroccan Code of Criminal Procedure, which permits the prosecution of any Moroccan or foreigner for terrorist crimes committed outside Morocco if they are found within the country; Article 1-218 of the Anti-Terrorism Law, which covers crimes including deliberate assault on individuals’ lives, safety, or freedoms; and, Article 1-1-218 also includes joining or attempting to join terrorist groups, regardless of their form or location.”
What makes this development even more worrying for the IDF and the Israeli government is that Morocco has a fairly good relationship with Israel. If there are many more “Avichzers” Israel will have to rethink its behaviour towards Palestinians and as regards the Occupation.
The theft of the gas field off the coast of Gaza is almost certain to follow the ultimate crushing of Palestinian resistance. Will Orna criticize that, I wonder, or will she find a way of rationalizing it?
That is the problem with these warm empathetic conversations with liberal Zionists: when it comes to the crunch – the point of doing anything concrete to help Palestinians achieve dignity and justice – they dig in their heels & find reasons why it won’t work.